Mistakes are inherent to sport. This episode delves into how athletes have bounced back from big mistakes that have altered the course of games or even a season. Dr. Larry and Coach Johnny focus in on how to use mistakes and failure to inspire the process of improvement, including specific ways to talk about the event. Ideas are also discussed for how coaches can respond to mistakes and help the athlete process and be resilient.


J: Welcome to the compete like a champion podcast. You're here with Dr. Larry Lauer, mental skill specialist, and coach Johnny Parks with USTA. Today we're going to dive into one of our core values of compete like a champion. We have seven, and this is going to be a test here Larry, we have seven. That's gonna, that's determination, engagement, confidence, respect, resiliency, professionalism, and tough.

L: Wow, you have nailed it, JP. You're a great student. I'm not sure you know what any of those mean, but you can rattle them off.

J: Perfect. So today's episode specifically, we're going to dive into resilience and in particular we're going to review the, the incredible final from Wimbledon, Roger Federer, Novak Djokovic.

L: Yeah. It was a great demonstration of resilience, a really by both players, but I think we're going to highlight Novak Djokovic today if you want to, uh, play a clip from the, uh, post, I believe it's a press conference, or is it... With Tom Rinaldi actually.

J: Yeah, Tom Rinaldi did the interview and absolutely fantastic interview with Novak and he looks absolutely exhausted by about halfway through the interview, he really hops on resilience. I'm just going to play it here for the viewers and then we can, then we can talk about it.

Video Audio: "Novak: It's a couple of years and we hope for the best. TR: A historic match in nearly every way. What are you most proud of? Novak: Just resilience and, and being, being composed. And I think that's never stop believing really. You know, I know it's a cliche and people tend to say that, but it's really true. And you know, the, the atmosphere was electric and, uh, he was, he was so close. I mean, he, he served extremely well. I had difficulties the entire match at reading his serve and, you know, he was dictating the play from the baseline. So, uh, you know, he was a better player for, for most of the match and..."

J: Dr. Lauer, what do you think?

L: Well first I gotta give kudos to Tom Rinaldi, because I think he does a great job and those post-match interviews where you're on on the spot, but specifically to what Djokovich was saying, I thought it was tremendous because it had highlighted the, the reality that these kinds of matches and really all the matches that the players are playing are so mental, they're emotional and those things play a huge role in how they perform in the moments are they able to allow their body to do what they've trained to do. We do all the physical training and the technical and tactical, but then it comes down to is your brain functioning on that day in a stressful environment and can you deal with adversity in a way that you can get a response out of yourself to allow you to perform in a moment to stay present. Interestingly enough, and probably some of our listeners have already heard this stat, but Djokovich won 14 less points in that match. 14. Not for... You've seen matches where a player loses a few points more but wins a match, not 14. This is incredible and it does speak to A. How he was up and down. He admits that in his post-match conference, but also how he has this ability to bounce back and really bring the most out of himself in adverse situations. It was a shining example of that in the Wimbledon final and certainly worthy of spending time talking about with with the listeners and, and you can find those clips online and you can watch the match parts of the match online to even that famous five set tiebreaker and one of the things, and then I'll hand it back to you Johnny, is that every one of those tiebreakers he stepped it up. He might've been playing, he was playing, it was good tennis, but in that tiebreaker it just seemed like he wasn't going to miss.

J: No, it didn't. There's just something that changed like in his eyes, breathing, he just seemed to lock it in and it wasn't exactly anything that Federer gave away. I mean even at those two match points that Fed had on his serve, I believe it was the second one where he approached up to the forehand and Novak on the, on the stretch running stretch to his forehand side, made that cross court winning pass. That one shot, I mean, you've got to come up with the goods with, you know, the best player on the tour, who transitions the most, the guy that is the best at going forwards to the net and the guy came up with the goods on the pass and that really was so, well, that was a defining moment, you know, at match point down. And that's when, when he brought himself back into it and you know, they, they all both held on serves to get to the tiebreaker.

L: Yeah. I think it's important to remind everybody that that point, saving that match point is a process that has, has been led up to for years. You know, you, you don't just play in that kind of Epic match and perform if you haven't been doing certain things for a long time. We always talk about habits on this podcast and Djokovic's notorious I think for having habits and one of the things that you see like in those tiebreakers when he or when he's down, he gets back up. The eye control, consistent routines, his breathing slows down, he takes very much, you see him the nostrils flaring, the chest rising, falling. You see this clear change in the energy right where he calms down. He talked a lot about composing himself and calming down in the post-match and he gets more committed to his game and I think you were referencing also to his, his routines, right?

J: And the ball bounce.

L: Yeah.

J: He definitely has a more distinct longer ball bounce when he is down or when he's in a tougher moment and obviously that is part of his routine to help him think clearly under those highest stressful situations and for that reason, and you can't really, it's no secret, there's no magic as to why he then comes up with the goods. It's an absolute dedication to doing the right things under high stressful situations and for him that's taking a little bit more time breathing. You often see him on the TV screen where he takes that big deep breath through the nose and lets it out and it's very visible, uh, more visible than I think you see any other player.

L: Absolutely.

J: And that breathing, you know, again, you say breathing is as simple as just getting more oxygen to the brain, right? And that then helps me think, helps us think clearer, come up with the game plan and be prepared for anything that's coming your way.

L: Absolutely. Novak talked about quieting the outside noise essentially and not thinking about the crowd and how they were cheering for Federer or the situation and how he wasn't playing well at times. How Federer was dictating a lot of the time and was able to still adapt to what was happening. And even though he lost more points, stay committed and actually raise that commitment level, that determination in the tie breaks. And again, it's not like Federer did anything bad. I think he ended up pressing because he knew that Djokovic was so dialed in, locked in that he was going to have to create something. And I think that's pressure on Federer that he felt in those scenarios.

J: So what would you say is the absolute, your purest definition of resiliency?

L: Well, the way I talk about, I think there's different definitions and different domains where they use this word, but for the way we're talking about it, it's the ability and the skill of adapting to stress and adversity and then being able to return to original form or better. So it's this bouncing back that we discussed with, with the younger players. Can you bounce back from something that is negative that's happened to you and this bounce back, it's certainly physical. Can you recover, which was very important in this match. We're talking about this almost five hour match, but can you recover physically, mentally, and emotionally and maybe even technically and tactically as well. Uh, can you get back to what works for you, what makes you successful? And Novak in this situation did an amazing job. He knows his game. He knows what was going to make him successful and he locked in big time to those things in that situation. So he not only was resilient when we think about determined in terms of being physically resilient and recovering, being ready to go again, he was mentally, emotionally resilient by letting go of the past, by staying present, but also tactically by really becoming relentless with his game. I believe.

J: So if we rewind to a lot of the development years, how do we build resiliency? How do we develop it over time?

L: That's the million dollar question, right? Some people will tell you it's in the genes. It is really, it's both. People have a predisposition for resilience, but also, we also know it's a skill and you can develop your resilience and so sometimes you'll see in academic circles they talk about it as ordinary magic. It's magical when you see someone be resilient and adapt and bounce back after adverse conditions, something negative, but everyone can do it. Everyone has the skill, the possibility to develop the skill to be resilient. Now you have to know, and I think we've talked about this on previous podcasts, you're one of those pillars of resilience and they are, first you have to have adversity or stress. You have to be put in that environment. And certainly Federer and Djokovic were put in it a lot, well this was, this was an epic match. Even if it doesn't go five hours because they're playing for the most grand slam titles in history and when Djokovich beats Federer, he, he gains by two, right? So Federer doesn't get one and he gets one. So it changes, right, the gap big time. So they know, they both are aware of that. So the gap went, I think the five instead of what it would have been seven had Federer won. So it's a big difference. So there's that and knowing that the number one and winning the prestigious Wimbledon trophy and all that that comes with that, that's more than enough stress. And then you put in the adversity of per Djokovic's case where you, you play a poor second set, your opponent's dictating most of the points and many of the service games are going about a minute, minute 20 and you're not really getting much of a look and you're being challenged a little bit more on your serve and yet being able to, to hang in there, which was was brilliant. But you have to have adversity and stress to be resilient, you have to be put in a situation and then you have to apply certain coping skills as we always we talk about on this podcast, like the way you talk to yourself Djokovich for example, after this match talked about how he kept reminding himself that he could do it and he was the better player and he would get it done. So the self talk and just really putting his energy in his, his focus on believing in himself and encouraging himself. And he also talked about refocusing on, you know, when you're, there's a lot going on, the crowds cheering, whatever on the next serve and getting back on task. So it's your self talk. It's being able to focus on your process, which he has an excellent one with his routines, knowing how he wants to play the game and making that the priority. It's your ability to focus as I mentioned, and filter out the distractions. He talked about that with the crowd cheering for Roger and sometimes he would think they were cheering for him or just sort of blocking out the noise and filtering it and going into his zone, put his breathing and his routines and keeping his eyes in the court. It's all of these things. It's your ability, you know, to visualize, you know, can you see in your mind how you're going to handle this scenario? Djokovic said he couldn't have planned for such a match. Obviously you don't expect and you go out to have such an epic match, but you can plan for certain scenarios and that's what resilient people do is they have a plan that they go to when adversity strikes. It's not random how they react. They respond and in Djokovic he may blow up. He may lose his stuff for a minute, but he gets it back. He breathes, he accepts what's going on, and he refocuses on his task and clearly he's, he's mastering the ability to refocus on the task at hand.

J: Well, one thing he mentioned in his interview there when he talks about resilience is this self-belief and he never lost it, never lost the self belief, match point down, going 12-12 and then going into the breaker, he talked about this self belief to talk about how those two go hand in hand.

L: Well, I mean the self belief with the resilience? I mean it truly is. When you think about if someone's going to be resilient, there has to be some hope that something's going to change, right? Because now you're in a situation where maybe your opponent's out-playing you or the crowds cheering against you or whatever it may be. Maybe you're struggling and you have to have hope that things are gonna change because that, that hope motivates you, it motivates you to problem solve. It motivates you to persevere with your game plan, to keep running, to keep fighting, to stay in your routines, right? To stay present. When you lose hope, you're pretty much screwed. Right? And we see that in matches too, where players like I don't know what to do, he's too good. When you start hearing that you're, you're in big trouble, but that's going down a bad road for that match, right? So that self belief, when it's, when there's a lot of self belief there in your game and how you performed in the past, the training and trusting your training, your ability to manage stress in an adverse environment, just in who you are as an athlete, as a person. When you have that self belief, it allows you then to be resilient. But as I always tell the players, look, you're not always going to have the greatest amount of self belief. So you've got to commit because commitment comes before confidence. You got to commit to what you're doing. And if you do that, then you'll start believing and you'll have a chance. But don't plan on believing in yourself if you can't commit to a routine, if you can't commit to making good decisions around your game, right? Having the right intentions, commit to running for every ball. When you don't do those things, the question mark's too strong usually to overcome.

J: Yeah, absolutely. And it goes back to your back is up against the wall. What do you do? How do you do it? And how'd you come out the other end of the on top. And I think when you look at, when we look at developing, let's say technique, you get the right forehand grip and now it's about repetition. And you hear coaches talk about a lot of repetition to nail down those skills. Now repetition isn't the, isn't the key to everything, but you know, tactical plays. If I want to work on a certain play of change of direction, then we can create an environment in practice where we can work on that change of direction and do some repetition on it. Same with physical skills and how we move, right? But what's not so obvious is how we practice the repetition of how you get your back up and how you get off the wall, right when your back is up against it. So maybe talk us through some of the exercises that you might do with players that help them recognize resiliency and how to practice getting that backs off the wall.

L: Well, yeah, I think you does a couple things. Number one is you have to practice the skills that are necessary to cope with the adversity, right? So doing mindfulness, practicing the ability to focus in the present, being accepting and nonjudgmental of things, the way you talk to yourself, your inner talk, your body language, your energy levels, what you focus on in terms of your goals, what you visualize, all these things. Learning these skills and learning how to use them effectively in adverse, stressful environments is important. So I think there should be a daily mental practice where you're working on these skills and we know, not only is it good to practice them because like anything, the more you do them, you get better at, they also have this ability to keep you focused and de-stressed every day. Keep you on point with your purpose. You know, for example, we, we often tell our players to do some mindful breathing in the morning, couple minutes, and then visualize your purpose for that day, how you want to practice or maybe your match and what you're gonna do in your match. Maybe write down a couple things you're grateful for and start your day. But that gets him in the right mindset. So we're not stuck with, well, I rolled out of the wrong side of the bed and I'm not good today. Well what I always say, get back in bed and roll out the other side and start doing your mindfulness because the world's not gonna stop. You still have to play that match. You still have to train and do you want to get the most out of it or you want to, you know, not be all there. So I think it's, it's teaching players these skills and why they matter. And then it's a matter of showing them how to implement them in match situations. And you start in practice. So you don't, you don't start in matches. You start in practice where you, you know, you just play, practice matches. I'm a big believer in practice matches and have them use their routines, have them start integrating in their skills. You know, taking deep breaths in between points, diaphragmatic breathing, having them doing a centered breath before they get into their return stance where you visualize where their serve is going to go, the spot, the trajectory going to the spot, how it's going to bounce off the court and what ball they expect next. Planning in between points, right? Their serve-plus-one or return strategy. So doing these things on a regular basis, you start to implement your coping skills, uh, your mental skills in a regular way. And so you deal with the stress as you go along really well. And then we know there are times where it builds up and there's situations that are just different. You know, like this match where you know, it's an epic match. You know, you're playing for something memorable and how are you going to deal with that stress? Or maybe you're playing terrible on that day. How are you going to deal with that adversity, right? While in these moments and being able to go into your routines, spend more time breathing, talk to the kids about breathe and belief, right? Take a couple breaths and remind yourself of something positive your coach would say to you or a strategy that really helps you get going, right? Moving your feet, et cetera. But having that plan then allows them to start to deal with those things. Well, and then I think if you talk about training resilience, once you've given them a release, started a process of the required skills that are needed, then you got to put them under pressure. You create pressure in practice. Maybe that's through having targets on serve and having to hit so many in the box or that's in match play and the way you're doing the scoring and starting out 0-15 on your serve and having to to win 75-80% of your service games or you know, your, you know, you have to pick up the balls for the rest of the week or sweep the courts or something or, whatever it may be, we don't, we don't suggest a physical punishment for that. So, but uh, you start creating pressures on them. Scoreboard pressure, outside distractions and noise, different things to test them. But it's, it's, it's unethical to test them unless you give them the coping skills. In a fact, and I don't really go after people hard about this, but I could make the case that putting kids in sport is somewhat unethical if you're not teaching them the coping skills to deal with the pressure. Right? I mean we should be, you know, why don't we do that?

J: Does it have to be that fine, fine balance between the, the explicit learning of understanding what resilience is and maybe how to recognize that. And then it's the practice part of it, which is the implicit learning side, which is a lot of it is done through like what you've just mentioned there with all the different examples of creating the environment that's going to recreate pressure and make them put those management techniques that they may be learned more in an explicit learning environment, to good use. So recognizing that and it's like now I've actually got to make a decision here and of how I'm going to deal with this. And then it's, and then the learning takes place through obviously the process about how they went about it, but then the outcomes that came from that.

L: Right. And then, and as a, as a coach or a teacher, it's our job to help them be aware of what they did to have a certain result and what changes they would make. But you're exactly right that implicit learning is, is necessary because again, to be resilient, you can't do without having stress and adversity, right? It's, it's impossible. You know, you can talk about it theoretically all you want, but you need to go through it. And I'll use the example we used to use when I was in Detroit because we had a lot of kids who are trying to be resilient and in tough environments, adverse environments. And I'm working with, you know, Tim Richie who is a CEO of, I think of Detroit [inaudible] at the time. But we would talk about how you see a kid and you see where they're at and then you push them just a little bit. Just support them. Not to bring them down, but we talked about the metaphor of the, of jumping rope that when kids jump rope, they don't put it at a level that's easy and just jump over like, Hey, it's fun. I can do it. They see how high they can go when they bring the rope a little higher, and that's what we try to do with resilience and emotional control and all the things that go into that is, okay, I see what your capacity is. I see what your threshold for adversity and stress is in a controlled environment where I can support you and I can work with you. I'm now going to turn up the dial just that little bit so I know that you're pretty good at handling just a regular old practice match, but if I put you in a situation where you only get one serve, suddenly that pressure dial gets cranked up a little bit and now we're going to help you through it. We're going to support you through, we're going to help you do it. So you have to be aware of these things that coach and be wise, you don't take a an eight year old kid who is just learning the game and then you know, throw them in a situation where you know, it's 95 degrees and you're, you're doing a bunch of running and then if they lose the game, then you know there's some kind of consequence. It's just too much. It's, it overwhelms them and it's too much. So you have to be aware of what they can do and take them a little farther, but not with the idea of breaking them down. That's not the goal. You want them to adapt. It's just like in the gym, right? Johnny, you want to adapt. You don't want to break the body down in the gym because you're not going to be able to go back in the gym the next day or in two days. You gotta break it down the muscles enough that they can adapt through recovery and mentally, emotionally, it's the same thing. We've got to test them. We can't completely break them. You got to know what the next level is. Be creative and push them that little bit more.

J: So would you say, if you're giving some advice out here to the parents and coaches, and again, I mean this is just sort of what I see, but you would look at the parents and coaches to be the people that are helping them with these management techniques and these coping skills. Maybe more so obviously the coach within the tennis realm, maybe more the parent within the life, life skill realm. Where is that balancing act between the two and how they can best help from those perspectives as a parent helping that child to be able to, you know, deal with resiliency or deal with tough situations to be resilient and the coach in the tennis realm?

L: Well I think it is a great question and I think it comes down to an agreement that the goal is not for everything to go perfect for the child and be easy or for them always to be successful because we know that doesn't lead to adaptation or resilience. And it actually is harmful at a later point in time. Parents think they're actually protecting their confidence. What they're doing is making them fragile and confident. They're not going to be able to respond to adversity well. So our, our job has got to be to communicate with parents as coaches and parents need to communicate with the coaches about what is the philosophy. Playing matches where there's a good chance you're going to lose. You're playing tournaments where you're probably a little bit in over your head, but it's a great opportunity to get pushed and see what the level is like at the next level. Right? And then there's going to be matches where it's even and matches where you know you're, you're expected to win and players need to deal with all of those expectations and learn to focus on the process of playing point by point and staying present instead of boring about the result and in getting ahead of themselves. So that can be done that way, I think. But there needs to be a mindset of philosophy that you want this child to be able to be resilient and so you're not going to do everything to make things easy for them, but it's also, and this is where I think people make the mistake as well, like, okay, we're going to be hard on the kid. You don't have to be mean. There's nothing about this as mean. The way I talk to the players like, look, you want to be a high performance player. I want you to be successful. That's your goal. We know what the environment's like in tennis, there's pressure, there's nerves. That's normal. It's tough. There are long matches, you run a lot, it's physical, it's hot. This is the reality of the sport, right? We're going to prepare you for those situations by putting you in situations in practice, and then we're going to support you through it. We're going to coach you. We're going to ask you to use your routines, your skills. We're going to give you feedback. We're going to ask you questions and give us feedback. We're going to work together to turn you into this resilient competitor. And it's not a mean process and I don't take joy in seeing people fail, but I know that people must fail on some level to be able to then be resilient, respond and come back stronger. So that's really important to understand. But for parents listening or coaches, the mentality is that I don't want things to be perfect for my kid. I want them to struggle a little bit. And there's a lot of layers to this conversation. Johnny, you know, you look at youth development research and they talk about how you want kids to make mistakes and you want them to problem solve, figure it out and apply their own strategies and you support them doing that. You just don't want them making the big mistakes like taking drugs or drinking and driving, that kind of stuff. Because obviously that can be life altering or tragic if something were to go wrong. So they talk about in this youth development literature, providing youth with opportunity to try things out to problem solve, figure out what works and then apply it. And this is where the most learning occurs. This is where they gain confidence to be resilient. Because if you think about it and you think about your own life, times where you figured stuff out and you applied it in an at work, how much more confident do you feel for the next time?

J: Oh, a lot more confident when you work through it and you come out the other end, but even if you don't it get, you get a sense of how you would deal with it next time. So when you approach that situation again, it's okay, well I got to this point last time. I need to do something a little bit different so that I can come out the other end, you know, successful or on top or whatever my definition of success is for that particular challenge.

L: That's some of the best conversations we have with players post-match when you get that feeling from them, when they lost, but they know that they battled and they competed, and they see the path to success, and that's fun because you know that they're going to be inspired to practice. They learned a lot. They're going to get back to work and they're going to be super motivated, right? The ones that are tough is when they come off the court and a, they look at you like, I don't know what to do. I have no idea how to beat this person. I don't, I don't know what's wrong with me. Then there's a process of building awareness so you can create this idea that there is hope. Fill back up that well of self belief. Like you can do it, but you're gonna have to follow a plan. And the plan gives them belief that they can find a way to be resilient and come back. Right? You here, if you look at any of the professional sports and you look at them playing seven game series in many of the pro sports, and they talk about a team loses a game and they'll talk about how, hey, it's one game. We're going back to our arena, our rink. We'll have our fans, we know what adjustments we're gonna make. It's a long series. We're going to be fine. You hear this all the time, right? And just the way that the coaches have trained the players to talk in the media because it spreads the rest of the locker room. Right. You wouldn't want a guy on the mic being like yeah, I think we're screwed. Teams usually don't come back from two games and none down. You never hear that, right? You're no, I think we're fine. You know, we've got to play one game at a time, one shift at a time, one period at a time, whatever it is. And we just have to get into our game. We got to pressure them. We've got to make our shots, whatever, right? You hear these things nonstop from athletes and in tennis you hear it all the time too. Yeah. Okay. I lost today and I know what was the difference. But these are things that I can work on, I can make better. Or if I just make a couple decisions differently, I might win that match. Or if I execute just 1% better on a few points, I can win that match. So what we see from resilient athletes is a very interesting thing in terms of way they attribute success and failure. Success for them is a very consistent, stable factor when they have success, like, yeah, I earned it, I know what to do, I can do it again. For athletes that are not confident, they look at success as luck or the other person had a bad day, they don't give themselves credit. Right? So champions, they look at this success and they know how they created it and they take belief in that. They know that they have control over and it can be something that they do on a regular basis. When they fail, champions often, okay, they'll take responsibility and be like, look, I know the parts that I control that if I change them I can win. So they still have hope, but they're also understanding the fact that yeah, some days you lose, the other guy was just a little bit better and so they know what's not stable when they lose, if that makes sense. Whereas people who struggle with these things, they look at failure as stable. Like, ah, I can never find a way. I don't know how to win in this level. And when they fail, they take all the responsibility and never look at like, Hey, the other person played well. They actually were just one ball better today, credit to them. They have a hard time doing that. So in terms of being resilient, the way you look at success and failure is very important. And I think parents and coaches at a young age can help shape the way that young people look at success and failure. That you're creating your success through your preparation and the way you approach things, your process, okay, your routines, your game planning, whatever. And when you fail, that's momentary. But you gotta learn from it. Go back to work and motivate yourself so you can come back the next time when you can get it done. Nadal was a master of this. He talks about it all the time.

J: Now this, this is awesome stuff and I'm sure we keep going and going.

L: Yeah, just let me go. This is going to be an hour long podcast today.

J: No, this is incredible stuff. And hopefully this is giving a lot of insights to all the listeners out there, the parents, coaches, players listening in to this. I do urge you that if you weren't able to watch that final, it is one for the ages and certainly go back and, and watch that through and...

L: You're gonna have to block out half your day. But it's worth it.

J: It is about four and a half, five hours. But it was an absolute epic and it's very rare to actually see these incredible feats of resiliency. And especially in finals of grand slams, the highest, you know, the highest accolade in our sport. And so when these moments do come by, it's, you don't want to miss it. So if you, if you weren't able to watch that final, I do urge you to go back and watch maybe the highlights, but I guess the highlight show would probably still be two hours long.

L: I'll mention one thing, you know, I, that morning I was watching the match in my man cave and uh, the that's upstairs with, uh, my oldest son Larry and my oldest daughter Elena came up and he started watching with me. And typically they'll watch, especially Elena, we'll watch for a little bit and leave because this match was so enthralling and so interesting, they stayed and watched like two hours. I was impressed, like, and naturally they started rooting for Federer, I'm not sure what that means for Djokovic, but they're like, Oh, I'm going to root for Federer, right. The old guy. But it was interesting in that match, and it was one of those matches where it could have been eight hours and I would have enjoyed watching from start to finish. So, yeah.

J: Yeah, it's unbelievable. I was, I was on a little vacation in Spain and I was with all my friends and my wife and my two year old and my two year old woke up from a nap about halfway through and she sat there just watching it with us because we were so into it. We were like, Oh yeah, come on. And then, you know, next I'm like, Oh, how can you do that? And then she was like, Whoa, what's going on? What's going on? Yeah. But she was all into it, she didn't know what she was looking at, but she was into it because we were so into it. And you're essentially sort of creating those memories, you know? And again, that only these types of events can provide. And then again, they don't come around a lot in a calendar year, so...

L: They do not.

J: Really got to utilize every moment. But yeah, so that's absolutely fantastic. You know, thanks for all the insights there, Larry, on resiliency. And you know, we do a lot of resiliency training within our camps and exposing it to, to, in our team USA camps across the country. And so we, we have more resources on resiliency on our website at Be sure to check that out. There's great areas on there on mental skills and other areas. So be sure to go to the website and that's it for today's episode of compete like a champion. Again, for more resources, go to our website, Until next time, Dr. Lauer.

L: Be resilient.

J: Be resilient.